Countries seeking support from Western-led financial institutions like the IMF and World Bank have long had to adopt unhelpful and even harmful Western systems of governance, but BRICS is offering an alternative, says Prof. Marta Fernandez, director of the BRICS Policy Center.

In this video, Fernandez explains China's role in this effort and why BRICS believes each country has the right to its own language, culture, currency and path to modernization. She also discusses China's partnership with other members of the Global South, U.S. tariff threats, China-Brazil trade and efforts to reform the global governance system.

Following is the transcript of the interview.

Diplomacy Talk: What stands out to you on this visit to China compared with your previous trips?

Marta Fernandez: It's my third time here in China, and I'm always impressed by the ability that the country has to combine its cultural heritage with the high technology and modernity. For me, it's very impressive — the capacity of China to maintain the past alive and at the same time to be focused on the future. And during my visit now, I went for the first time to the Museum of the Communist Party of China. And I was impressed by how China combines these ideas of socialism with something that is very historical, cultural, that has these historical roots.

Diplomacy Talk: How would you describe your perception on China and its role on the global stage?

Marta Fernandez: China is now the second global economy, and it's important to say that China is becoming a partner of the Global South. It's not imposing its view from a unilateral perspective but in a very collective way, trying to listen to Global South countries. So, I think that China has much advice to give to Global South countries. For example, the way to fight against hunger.

Diplomacy Talk: Western media view BRICS either as a challenge to Western economic dominance or as a geopolitical rival to the G7. Do you see BIRCS in this light or more as a platform for promoting multipolarity?

Marta Fernandez: On the one hand, BRICS is trying to present itself not as an anti-Western bloc. At the same time, BRICS is advancing and defending a multipolar world in all domains — in economic domains, in cultural domains, and in monetary domains. And BRICS is advancing trading in local currencies. This is seen as a provocation by the United States. President Trump said that if BRICS continues to advance this agenda of having an alternative currency or trying to promote trading in local currencies, he will impose tariffs on the group. It's the first time that Trump did these provocations against a group and not against a single state. So, the moment that BRICS is defending a multipolar world, it is going against the privilege of a few that try to maintain, in a very unrealistic way, a world of a single state as the hegemon.

Diplomacy Talk: With BRICS now expanding, some critics are worried that greater diversity would weaken its unity and decision-making. Do you see this as a real risk?

Marta Fernandez: No, on the contrary, BRICS has been redefining diversity, not as a risk or a weakness, but the richness is the strength of BRICS. The West had viewed difference and diversity as something bad, as a problem that has to be eliminated or converted. For example, in the Bretton Woods institutions, because there is some liberal idea that in some way, functions as conditionalities to a country to receive money from these institutions, they have to adopt the liberal script. So they have to adopt a system of governance, according to Europeans' and North Americans' ideals; they have to convert themselves.

These ideas have been in some way resignified by BRICS, because what BRICS is saying is that diversity is something very positive. Many analysts, when BRICS emerges, they have said that BRICS will not last because the countries are very different. Now BRICS has 10 full members and BRICS not only survives, but BRICS is seen as much more influence in the international arena.

So the idea that BRICS brings is that each country has the right to have their local currencies and trade in their own local currencies, have their own language, their own culture, histories.

Diplomacy Talk: With the global order in flux — from the China-U.S. competition to growing calls for multipolarity — what do you see as BRICS' most achievable role in the coming decade? Should it focus on reforming the existing institutions, building new ones or shaping global rules?

Marta Fernandez: BRICS is trying to reform the international institutions that were created after the World War II. When these institutions were created, a great part of the world, of Africa, of Asia was under colonial rule. So they did not exist as states. And these institutions were created in a very hierarchical way. What BRICS is trying to defend is the reform of these institutions, for example, the reform of the United Nations Security Council, the reform of the Bretton Woods institutions, where the United States, until now, has a veto power.

But at the same time, BRICS is constructing new arrangements, as in the case of the New Development Bank (NDB). The NDB is the bank of the BRICS, as a way to become an alternative vis-à-vis the Bretton Woods institutions. The NDB operates by a different logic. They do not impose conditionalities. They don't want to convert states to a single model. And they are, in some way, investing a lot in developing countries and in green infrastructure. So it's an alternative arrangement.

BRICS is trying to reform the liberal international order of the post-WWII era, because BRICS countries understand that this order is very exclusionary, and they want these institutions to give more voice in voting to Global South countries. But at the same time, they are trying to create their own institutions where they can, in some way, present an alternative view of development.

Diplomacy Talk: Brazil is enjoying a trade surplus with China, mainly exporting raw materials while importing manufactured products from China. Is there any concern in your country that the influx of Chinese products could hold back the development of your country's own industries?

Marta Fernandez: If you consider the trade relations between Brazil and China, as you said, we export commodities, mainly soybeans, iron ore and mineral oils, and we import products of high values, technology. And nuclear reactors, for example. Some people see this as complementarity, and other people see this as an international division of trade, of labor. What is happening now is that gradually, the content of the trade is changing. China is more prone to transfer technology to Brazil, especially green technology, and this is an opportunity that I think is now open to Brazil.

Diplomacy Talk: China has rolled out several major initiatives in recent years, including the Global Development Initiative, the Global Security Initiative, the Global Civilization Initiative and now the Global Governance Initiative. How do you view China's pattern of introducing new frameworks? Do you see it as constructive leadership or as a move to dominate the global agenda?

Marta Fernandez: China is introducing a new grammar to the world, for example, the win-win cooperation against the idea of the zero-sum game, and all these kinds of ideas of a shared future for humanity, etc. China and Brazil understand that to maintain stability and to have some promise of a future of peace, it's very important to look to development. For example, if you don't eradicate hunger, you will never have peace. So these dimensions are very connected. The dimension of development, the dimension of security and also the civilization dimension, they are very connected.

One big idea of China is that modernization has different paths. There is not only one idea of modernization, as, for example, the West believes. There is not one single way. So the idea that has been flourishing in BRICS is that there are multiple ways to modernize, but these multiple ways of modernized societies have to be connected with local reality, with the material conditions of society.

So it's very important that all these ideals are not imposed through a top-down perspective, but that have been in dialogue, have been negotiated with the states, and adapted to the different realities of societies.

Presenter: Xu Rong

Production supervisor: Li Xiaohua

Co-production supervisor: Zhang Liying

Executive producer: Zhang Ruomeng

Editors: Zhang Heling, Jiao Yuan, Lyu Yiyi, Xia Fangting

Produced by chinadiplomacy.org.cn